Sent: 20 October 2009
To: eLation eBikes
Subject: Return of Battery and Right Crank/Chain ring
Hi
I've posted the items to you today.
Re the wobble in the right crank revolution: I loosened the crank and re-tightened - no change to the problemI took the crank off - I found some small bits of debris in 'hub', between the axle and the ring cluster, there was also rust in the hub (I cleaned the debris and a bit of the rust).I re-attached the crank (same position) - no change to the wobbleI removed and re-attached the crank 180 degrees, the wobble was less pronounced but was still visible - it just appeared to be on the other side of the cluster.
So it seems there is something inside the hub of the cluster that is causing the distortion. So I have sent it to you to check out.
thanks
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From: Me
Sent: Monday, 26 October 2009 4:10 PM
To: eLation eBikesSubject:
Re: Return of Battery and Right Crank/Chain ring
Hi. Not sure if you got [my previous] email, but the package would have arrived by now. I sent it registered post to your PO box last week.
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From: eLation eBikes
Sent: 26 October 2009
To: Me
Yes
Received goods and turned around today back to you.
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From: Me
Sent: Saturday, 31 October 2009 5:02 PM
To: eLation eBikes
Subject: Re: Return of Battery and Right Crank/Chain ring
Hi, received the goods yesterday thanks.
I reinstalled the crank set, however I have exactly the same problem in exactly the same rotation position. This leads me to believe it's a problem with the bottom bracket axle.
I haven't got a tool to remove, but i will get one on the weekend and remove it and see if there is a defect in it.
If it appears to be the problem, do I send it back to you, or direct to the bike shop you deal with?
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From: eLation eBikes
Sent: 1 November 2009
To: Me
Hi
You are certainly having a run of ‘bad luck’. I am 90% sure that Epseria do checks prior to sending to me (box is always resealed, etc), and I am 100% sure we do tests we leaving here.
One of those tests is test install by powering up, and also to turn pedal to ensure freewheel, etc is OK So for BOTH of us to miss a bent axle is unusual. Oh well. Please remove and advise. I am pretty sure that Esperia will want to see this one also if it is believed to be axle.
When removed, if you believe it to be axle please return to here since purchase was via us direct.
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From: Me
Date: 9 November 2009 14:34
Subject: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hi
I have today sent back the BB Axle via registered post.
After inspecting the axle, I don't think it's bent. But there does appear to be a defect in the hub(?). It looks like a ring in the hub surrounding the axle is slightly irregular (warped or buckled). It's very minute, but it looks consistent to the wobble appearing in the chain ring while peddling.
I expect it would be easy to miss because the front derailleur was not adjusted in the packaging (as previously discussed) so the small deviation would not be noticed.
The axle bearings also do not appear to be very smooth (spinning the axle is a bit tight).
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From: Me
Date: 22 November 2009 23:54
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
hi.
it's been over 2 weeks now. any progress with the axle replacement?
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 23 November 2009 12:07
Subject: RE: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: Me
Hi
As of mid last week I had not seen it, and I am laid up with back injury for another couple of days.
Surfers Po is large and has 1000s of boxes. I will contact them and ask if they have any 'stray' packages. It has happened a couple of times since I got box there. They have a weird color coding system for goods and sometimes I think they use a color blind monkey to sort.
Sorry I can't act sooner with crook back. Will try tomorrow if back is OK.
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From: Me
Date: 23 November 2009 14:53
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hi
Sorry to hear about your bad back.
Nevertheless I'm very disappointed about this. I emailed when i posted the item on 9 Nov. I've just called Aust Post & they said the box has been waiting there since 11 Nov. The item is still there.
This is all the more frustrating for me since i've only been able to ride the bike 6 or so times since i got it months ago, due to all these problems
Would you please call the other shop & get them to send the replacement & sort out the faulty part when you are better. Otherwise it will be a whole month without the bike.
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 23 November 2009 15:35
Subject: RE: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: Me
Just one other thing on a matter of timing. I did check box on Wednesday, at approx 6am when I go for ride. They acknowledge was in box that day, but on what time?
Also I would like to highlight that I advised you on 1st Nov to send it back, you taking 9 days to initiate that so I could also make statements about disappointment in relation to my timing. If you had acted in a 'timely manner' I would have had done prior to back injury occurring.
It has been unfortunate the series of issues you have had, but reviewing my emails I have responded quickly in every instance. Delays in sending have been from your end.
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From: Me
Date: 24 November 2009 00:14
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hi
No they only told me what day my registered item had arrived, not the time of day & that a card for my item was still there. I was trying to ensure they didn't send it back to me as they said they originally said they only hold for 10 days. But PO lady said they will hold for a month.
Yes i did take 9 days to get the part to you. Unfortunately i didn't have a tool to get the thing off, & also i have to work & couldn't get the tool until the weekend then got the wrong one. whereas this is your business & you can do this work everyday(?)
Also it has been more than 9 days since I've sent it to you. I've been patiently waiting without complaint for 2 weeks. So it was time to see what is happening. So now i find out you haven't even got it. And by the time you get to it. Process it. Send to the bike shop. Get a replacement. Send it back. It will probably be a month turnaround now.
Do you think i would not be frustrated?!
Yes you have been pretty quick when you have the items. But you don't appear to get your post very often from my experiences with you so far.
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 24 November 2009 11:37
Subject: RE: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: Me
I went and got package this morning. If I had not been aware of the approx size of pack I would not have got it. I HAD TO ASK if they had a small package. After 3 minutes they come back and said "oh yeah.....", thus explaining my comments of their operation.
A quick review of the item does not seem to show any issues. However to save time I will replace it. If this does not remedy situation then it will validate my earlier comments that crank needs to be reseated in alignment. I have found this all very strange, as I assure you we have over 800 systems out there now, and have not experienced this type of 'ongoing issue'
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From: Me
Date: 25 November 2009 08:20
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hi
If you look very closely at the right (R). Side of the hub, and spin the axle, you can see like a slight warp in the 'ring' of the hub.
It's small but consistent with the warp appearing each revolution of the front chain ring. its not the crank alignment as 2 separate cranks had exactly the same warp in exactly the same location.
I'd just like 2 add that this whole process has also cost me about $100 for 2 new tools & 4 postage costs.
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From: Me
Date: 3 December 2009 21:08
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hi
I've installed the replacement axle. But i'm very very disappointed to say that the problem still persists. I don't know what else this could be. It must be a problem with your batch of freewheel chainring hubs. I don't why i'm the only 1 experiencing this.
In addition, the replacement axle is shorter than the original one & now cannot change gears on the front chain ring as it gets jammed between motor & chain ring.
Anyway. I've really had enough of this now. Thanks for sending all the bits back for me & helping as you could. But i just can't keep wasting my time & money trying to fix this & barely getting to use the bike.
I would like to return the kit & bike & get a refund please.
Would you please call to discuss.
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 3 December 2009 21:35
Subject: RE: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: Me
I share your frustration as I too find it hard to accept one person can have so many issues. Without seeing the bike as it now is, I cannot draw any conclusions to your claims. I am still of a belief that because the crank is disassociated from the rings that the minor lateral movement may be within tolerance for a bearing based system, but naturally outside that of a fixed
joined system. Whether the movement is actually outside of the 'norm' I can neither confirm or reject at this stage.
I KNOW when the bike left here all bikes 'moved' and 'rotated' correctly. Not long after receiving it you started making one claim after another about your perception of a fault. In each instance I highlighted my concerns that I did not readily agree with your comments but in each instance, at your request, I also send new parts to replace part claimed to be 'faulty' this
time.
The last instance of saying BB axle was not straight, was to me ludicrous and I tried to politely point that out. Despite this you still insisted it must be the issue, so I went to an INDEPENDENT shop and purchase the axle. I stated in MUST be the same size to satisfies a 'particular client". Their response was it is ONE mil difference which translated to 0.5mm each end. They even grabbed verniers to show me. For you to now say this 0.5mm is causing another issue is beyond me.
Your current email now claims that the whole batch (of another part) must be the problem. Yet of the 100 units in this batch only the two you received have 'issues', I am sorry but that is just too much of a coincidence; and before you suggest maybe it is Chinese quality this time, THOSE PARTS are made in good old Australia.
I would be happy for you to contact the manufacturer and discuss your latest claim relating to their components being the issue.
I should have stuck to policy when you first raised a 'problem' and ask the unit be returned as per warranty for repairs at base. But instead I gave credence to you claims.
I will not entertain these claims any further or a refund; any further action will be done as per standard warranty requirements of return to base. Once received we will repair/replace under warranty. Please complete attached returns form and include with item for return.
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From: Me
Sent: Thursday, 3 December 2009 10:10 PM
To: eLation eBikes
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
Hi again.
Apologies for getting the axle theory wrong. The fact still remains that i've got a problem in that area. It was a logical conclusion that it could be an axle problem if the replacement [crankset] didn't fix the problem. The fact is that i've still got a dodgy part.
No need to treat me like i'm stuffing you around. but yes, it seems like you need to see it to believe it. i didn't want to have to send the whole bike back because of the large cost & repacking. i was hoping it was something minor. seems not.
so i will send the whole thing back. you might finally believe me!
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From: eLation eBikes
Sent: Thursday, 3 December 2009 23:48PM
To: Me
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
What I believe of you is not relevant, I should have applied conditions of warranty from the start.
That would have save us both a lot of time and doubts.
Please ensure no further delays occur, as I also have my concerns that delays, changes by you and use will not assist in remedying this issue.
If you take as long as past times to return product I will not accept for warranty and will return.
I see no reason it cannot be on its way by next Monday thank you. Until then do not operate bike in any way.
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From: Me
Date: 4 December 2009 15:05
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Attached is a pic of the problem caused by the wrong size axle. It shows the chain ring's contact with the motor fitting when changing from the inside chain ring to the middle chain ring.
Also there is a video clip of the front chain ring, showing the distinct wobble when peddling.
I shall endeavour to send the bike on Monday.
There is no way to 'operate the bike' as it is currently not rideable.
I do not believe your following statement can invalidate warranty "If you take as long as past times to return product I will not accept for warranty and will return." remember the parts were sitting in your PO box longer than it took me to send back, on 2 occasions.
I do not wish to this to be a nasty dealing between us, so would you please treat me, the customer, with some respect and pleasant service, as I don't feel I am getting this from the 'tone' of your emails that I am perceiving.
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 4 December 2009 15:57
Subject: RE: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: Me
Sorry but no interested in reviewing anything now but REAL thing. Like you I have spent too much time where it should not have been focused. As stated last night I should have stayed with policy. Again I am sorry but any delay in sending MAY impact on warranty from this point. In every instance I have been responsive to your requests, in every instance you have delayed from you end.
In relation to PO, I actually lodged a complaint to Aust Post about that. It was found I had not been advised, contrary to theirs and your claim. The manager has since been admonished for this. I further backed this up with the incident the day I did go to receive it. I have had a number of issues with them, not really concerned if you chose to believe anymore.
A skeptic would suggest this assist is extending warranty. It will take very little time to have bike packed up and shipped, I know from experience. I again, like so many other claims form you, only have your word it cannot be ridden. So based on your logic a VCR not used for 12 months should have some ‘greater claim’ to warranty because the owner stated is was not used????????? Respect is a two way street.
DO NOT for one minute feel I am a car salesman who will say the customer is always right and the sky is black because they say so.
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I called eLation by telephone and he hung up on me while I was still talking
I tried to call back a few minutes later, but eLation refused to answer the phone again
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From: Me
Date: 4 December 2009 16:45
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hi. Would you please keep this civil. I was just trying to have a polite conversation with you . I was saying 'yes I will follow up with an email but I still wanted to discuss with you first' on the phone because it can be easier to converse and explain without misinterpretation, and you rudely hung up on me and refused to answer again.
Would you please call me so I can discuss some additional information.
that would be appreciated. thanks
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From: Me
Date: 4 December 2009 17:21
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
Hello.
As I was going to explain to you over the phone.
This afternoon I took the bike to my local bike shop owner to ask his opinion of the problem.
In summary he said that (not direct quotes, but my interpretation of what he explained):
- it IS the free wheel hub causing the wobble effect
- with cheaper parts like this and similar lower cost free wheel hubs normally in the rear wheel chain ring, there is a more pronounced wobble (and he showed me a cheap bike for an example)
- he said that this kind of free wheel hub is not suited to the bicycle supplied because it requires finer precision for it's larger gear set up on the rear wheel - the wobble effect is causing the chain to rub on the front derailleur when in the smaller rear cog. to account for the wobble, which is more exaggerated the further out from hub (ie the chain rings), the system should not be used on a bike with more than 6 cogs on the back wheel.
- basically this bike and system are not fully compatible as he believes nothing can be done with that kind of hub - the problem will probably still exist with a replacement hub/chain ring.
- on a previous discussion with him, he said he's had previous experience with your system, dealing with other people who have had it on their bikes
Therefore, as this problem cannot be fixed and the bike & kit cannot be used properly in this case, I propose these 2 options:
- I return the bike and e-lation kit + battery for an 80% refund as a compromise, or
- I keep the bike, but return the e-lation kit and battery for a full refund of those components.
Again, I'm trying to be as sincere as I can and have always been honest with you on these matters, hence my consulting the bike shop before sending back to possibly save us more trouble.
I can give you the bike shop number if you want to verify this.
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 4 December 2009 17:37
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: me
All I need is to know bike is on way Monday, if not then I will not be held accountable for any delays I'm return due to Xmas lead up. Nor will I store product once fixed (and/or delayed due to sending late).
Not being rude or arkward, more than anything mad at myself for not adhering to policy from start.
I look forward to return of product so we can make our own assessment, not those of 'armchair' engineers. Rest of conditions of timing, etc continue to apply. If you CHOSE not to return product that is your choice. But natural warranty will become void.
PS. We have installed on over 20 systems with 24 speed and know of 4 with 27. So much for their expertise.
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From: me
Date: 4 December 2009 18:00
Subject: Re: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: eLation eBikes
warranty cannot be void. what happens if something else breaks in the 12 month period? i expect that is not true.
btw the guy is a bike mechanic & bike shop owner, so i would believe he has valid experience
so what are you going to do if you look at the bike and can't fix the problem? will you give me a refund?
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From: eLation eBikes
Date: 4 December 2009 18:17
Subject: RE: Return of Bottom Bracket Axle
To: Me
I look forward to the timely return of the product for assessment under warranty. Any comment until then is of no value.
Have a good weekend. You have already wasted a day in which the product good have been on its way.
WOW, the owner, well that means he knows all there is to know and would never make a statement that might be invalid or get it wrong. Funny, he has 'dealt with' so many of our kits, yet I have never had any other issues (beside one battery failure) originating from .
Let me go out on a limb here, does he have ANY association with ANY other ebike product?
PS. Blind Freddy would also tell you (but clearly not your 'expert') that 80-90% of bikes sold now have at least 21 speed (7 gears) with the next 10% have 24 speed. You would have to go out of your way (and most likely pay more, just like trying to get a NEW P3 computer) to find any 18 speed bike.
Am sorry, but.................
PS
" warranty cannot be void."
Try me.
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